"Economics of 3D printing" Topic

I was thinking about the massive advantage of 3D printing and its value to the serious player.

I have just commisioned a new 1/144 vehicle, a Panhard EBR 90 (French Armored car around from late 1950's to at least the late 1990's in some places).

Being short on time I commissioned it from AOTRS Shipyards so its to my specification i.e turret locked and accurate scale. It cost me £50.00 GBP for joint ownership. I've just printed 12 of these on my Prusa I3 +
Assuming the printer costs £ 0.50 GBP per hour, including the cost of the STL file its cost be about £5.00 GBP a model. That sfigure covers the cost of materials, Power replacement of the printer when its worn out Assumed 2000 hrs run time to replacement. This is the same as buying an existing model from a typical supplier.

And as to my economics being wrong, I just checked the machine has had no maintenance. So far with no evidence of trouble it has lasted just under 4950hrs so I an assuming far too higher printing cost.

This means the serious collector can have ANY model he wants for less than the cost of a standard model, no longer do you have to wait for a manufacturer to make one you can have one in a few weeks at no extra cost!

Lots of folk who say 3D printing is a hobby in itself, my very recent experience once and for all shows this is complete disinformation.

3D printing has also had an impact on model railroaders.

People who think 3D printing is its own hobby are not wrong because you say they are. People who think differently than you seems to throw you into a tail spin. Why do you always feel the need to insult other peoples' choices?

I view it as its own hobby because of the learning curve involved: it is not as simple as pouring in resin, loading an STL file into the printer, and then hitting the, "Go", button.

First off, you had to commission another person to create the STL file for that particular model for you… That took 3D rendering/design skills which you did not possess.

There is the issue that the STL file must be properly sliced, before it can be 3D printed; it must be given proper supports added to the file (the automated supports often lead to problems, so they must be manually modified, or the print may be ruined).

On top of creating the STL files in the first place, then configuring the STL files for optimum printing, the user must remove the cured resin model, wash it in Rubbing Alcohol, then expose it to more UV Light to fully cure it. Note that this process of additional UV Light exposure increases the brittleness of the figure…

After that, depending upon the resolution of your printer (both resin and FDM), there may be layer lines which need to be filled in, to smooth the surface before priming the figure, and then painting it.

On top of that, there is the brittleness of the cured resin which makes the figures very delicate and easily broken in a 2-foot drop to a hard floor. I know that there are resins which are not so brittle. They are uber-expensive to use, full strength, so most modelers mix them with the less expensive, more brittle resins: formulas vary, as does the brittleness of the finished models (FDM models are not particularly brittle).

I think that pretty much outlines why most people consider 3D printing to be a hobby unto itself.

There is also the initial investment in equipment and supplies, on top of the learning curve. It takes a great many printed figures to offset the invested cost of the equipment. There is also the time investment required, after the initial learning of the required techniques: creating/modifying STL files, slicing them, printing (typically takes hours per print run…), the odors of the resins and the alcohol, and space for all of the equipment in a person's home.

There is nothing wrong with 3D printing being considered a hobby unto itself! It just is not something every war gamer is into. Cheers!

Both Laser Cutters and 3D printers offer incredible options for war gamers. I personally cannot justify either technology for my home use: time investment in learning; equipment costs versus how much use I would get out of them -- I would not make enough toys to break even… I do, however, order Laser Cut products from Etsy vendors; I also order 3D resin printed figures from Etsy vendors, as desired.

Well, I did order 3D resin printed figures, until I discovered how brittle they are. They typically break off at the ankles, and pinning is not an option as their ankles are too small! I have sworn off ordering resin 3D printed figures because nearly every one I've bought thus far, has broken, and repairs are nearly pointless as they will just break again.

I expect the technology to continue to advance, and to become less expensive, less complex, and more accessible for the average user. I'll wait until then. Cheers!

I see it as a kind of adjunct hobby, as it takes some specialty knowledge, but it pretty fun to do- to watch somethgin form out of goo (actually, filament printing is much more fun to watch, but I digress).

I look upon it much int he same was as painting is an adjunct hobby- you can game with unpainted figures, or you can pay someone to paint them. Painting is a skill in itself and needs specialty tools.

First off if you use a decent FDM printer like I do, there is no learning curve. The slicer provided by the likes of Prusa is easy to use and works first time so I maintain that 3D most certainly not a hobby in itself.

79thPA Disinformation is wrong. So folk can not want to do it. That's fine that is valid personal choice, but to say it's a separate hobby is disinformation, its use is trivial with a decent FDM printer. Resin may be more involved but I have personally it of no extra value, at wargames distances any minor changes in surface finish are indistinguishable.

If it was a hobby of itself I for one would not bother with it. Wargames is sufficient, I would not have time to do another hobby.

Lazer cutters, I have one but to be honest since having a 3D printer I have found only minimal use for it. Most stuff can be done faster, bwtter and with less efford with an FDM printer.

How is selecting a 3D artist any different to selecting a figure manufacture? For some perhaps the massive indecision associated not knowing what to pick, as the choice is not limited. That bit to me is a gain not a loss even if sometimes the options need a lot of thinking about, it's definitely fum not hasstle for me.

I used to keep tabs on how much the models I printed cost (including all the overheads) com pared with white metal and I broke even before the first bottle of resin was used up. My 15mm resin printed WW2 Finnish army that used around £15.00 GBP of resin would have cost over £400.00 GBP in white metal.

Yes, there is a learning curve and sometimes it can be extremely frustrating when you get a particularly tricky model to print properly, but in general its a fast and easy process once you know what you were doing. I printed off around a hundred ship models for our university naval wargames event in a day or so and there was no way we could have had thestudents pushing around models of the ships they'd designed if we'd not had that opportunity

It isn't cost effective for me but I do admire those who work with it.

@UshCha

Lots of folk who say 3D printing is a hobby in itself, my very recent experience once and for all shows this is complete disinformation.

Complete disinformation!!! Harshly worded – you've upset the 3D-printing hobby-istas.

I think you meant to say that you've discovered a different, easier way to approach 3D-printing.

Stoppage, Nope, 3D FDM printing is a no brainer. We did have a very good offer for a resin printer, with all the crap that goes with it like UV curing devices and kindly declined.

The thought of having to go through all that crap just to print a model that is probably less robust, has a huge clear up time compared to an FDM printer (FDM clearing takes less than 30 sec) was just not for us.

Plus with FDM no need to load a build plate to make it sensible one 12mm figure is perfectly acceptable as a load and minimal clear up time.

Now there are bits to printing in FDM which are more complex but nothing to do with Wargames. Mine prints replacement plastic parts for DIY. Specifically stuff that is no longer available like bed supports for my caravan. Now you can say that does need new skills for some, but my DIY skills included making drawings so no great leap to doing CADDS models, many of the skills are common to the DIY man anyway.

I don't see UshCha's post as insulting, he's just making a case. Can't get that sensitive about it, myself.

Perhaps the wording should be "3D printing CAN be a hobby unto itself, but doesn't HAVE to be".

My printing season (the third – May to September) is about to start, as soon as I've got motivated enough to replace my nFEP and the rain stops – I live in the UK . My interest is 6mm WWII gaming, not printing per se. My target is 350 vehicles per season, plus the odd 15mm ancients figures, 25mm fantasy for RPGs and any odd files I come across which peak my interest. I have a print station set up in a very leaky (therefore ventilated) garage and I use eco-resin (odourless – I don't even use a mask, and I could use water instead of alcohol if I chose).

I sat on the 3D printing fence for a long time, and did a lot of research – and SGT Slag has listed all the problems and issues which I came across. For a while I drooled over Shapeways pages, and rejected them as too expensive, as well as getting some negative reviews about quality, until I finally took the plunge. I broke even in 2 seasons.

My mains criteria were:-

• it has to work straight out of the box, because I don't want a shelf queen that never gets used. I'm technically challenged enough, so I didn't want anything that would require either a degree in computing or software (CAD etc) to make it work. I therefore chose an E-Pax 1N as it was on offer, and build plate size was not critical. I have not (yet) updated the firmware or the (obsolete) Chitubox slicer version provided. Yes, there was a minimal learning curve (rescaling and supports mostly) and some further research to improve the settings, BUT my first effort – apart from the test print to makes sure it was working – was a plate of 34 WWII Soviet tractors (STZ5; STZ3; Komintern; Voroshilovetz in multiple versions), which all turned out OK. Which brings me to …
• …quality and subject matter. Most of the things I print are simply not available, or are prohibitively expensive in metal. My criteria also included "must stand up against the quality of the mid-range commercial producers" (eg H&R). Many are MORE detailed AND cleaner than the commercial equivalent. You also need a magnifier to see the layer lines. Accepted, I use the lowest possible layer height setting and therefore sacrifice time. A bit of practice with orientation also helps. It is still a lot quicker than waiting days for an on-line delivery, or months for a show to come around. You don't have to stand and watch it all day (although jgawne's point about watching goo resolve into things is interesting – I don't have an FDM printer … (yet).
• Cost – a batch of half-price resin (2litres) and a bunch of sundries, which I'm not through yet (over 700 items later remember!) – and which are factored into the budget. The whole set-up, including a curer, was less than £500.00 GBP, and my average per item is currently 68p, and after this season should drop to 48p, just counting 6mm vehicles. Averaging that over at H&R would have cost around min.75p/item – not that much difference IF they offered all the subjects. Of course the question arises, "would I have bought 700+ vehicles over 2 years, had they been available?" – mmmmm …
• Availability. I have yet to pay for an STL. Admittedly most of them need rescaling for 6mm, but that's easy enough. Thanks to thingiverse (but not exclusively), I have amassed a library/resin mountain of subjects, which grows faster than I can paint. There are only around 20 (largely obscure) subjects which I'm still looking for. Every couple of weeks I have a trawl on an STL finder or two, and often a will show up. Obviously other files surface, which I didn't know I wanted until that precise moment!
• Fail rate – has increased as I take on more complex subjects and dodgier files; I've also got a bit cocky It's rare that a whole build plate fails, so I print a couple of extras, and on a few occasions, have revised the supports and gone again
• Space? The same footprint (including the washer/curer) as a home PC+printer. Inconvenience? It's in the garage: if it's raining, I don't print until it stops – this is for a hobby remember!

So it almost has arrived at "pour in the resin, load a file and hit Go". No commissioning for me; minimal editing skills (scaling and supports); minimal on-going costs (resin+alcohol); and slicing is "hit a button"; no extra UV light; no smoothing and doesn't require primer – I still do primer: too old school? – but it isn't necessary to make the paint stick, as you do with metal (yes, I use acrylics).

Of course there are cases of space/H&S etc, which mean some folk can't engage, but that applies to any aspect of any hobby – I have no space and domestic considerations mean the possibility of hosting games is very limited. Then I don't have small children to drink the resin or cats to knock the washer/curer over. But I print to game AND FOR NO OTHER REASON. I won't be printing articulated sharks or a Yoda phone holder anytime soon, however interesting and entertaining/challenging the Prusa website or newsletter say they are. That stuff is for the people who want 3D printing as a hobby in-and-of itself (and I'm not having a go at Prusa – they were just the first that came to mind).

My experience (and UshCha's apparently) is that the case for decent cheap toys is made. The economics of the thing is unquestionable. Do any hobbies come without a few down-sides? Paint used to come with a warning about ventilation, and if you ever spilled Humbrol enamels on the carpet, you will know just how expensive that can be! You can wait until all the problems have been sorted out: I did that with home computing and how I wished I hadn't. By the time I made the leap, I was waaaay behind the curve. I must however take exception to UschCha's comparison with resin vs FDM though. Make the right choices and it's no more expensive to resin print than to use filament. Why do you need to fill a build plate? "All the crap" is one device, (and see David Manley's post). You get a better result from resin. What "clear up time"? I have also yet to find an FDM owner who doesn't seem to feel the need to buy upgraded filament feeders, new hot ends/nozzles mats etc. There's no constant bed levelling with the resin printer either. Disinformation ? You can always find reasons to knock the other side, but I suspect YMMV and there may be good reasons for not printing your own (I would not consider commissioning or having a third party print for me – for the very reasons outlined in others' posts). And of course you get the option of printing all kinds of other Bits 'n' Bobs, which are otherwise unavailable/costly with either school. Are we just early adopters? I'm looking at getting a filament printer anyway – maybe that will make it a hobby in itself (NOT!)

Cheers

Kev

crashtestdummy Clearly you need to do more FDM research. Bed leveling is automatic on the Prusa, it does do a check every time. It did once fail, I had some debris from somewhere under the build plate, brushed it off and away it went.

Nearly 5000 hrs printing, seen no need for any upgrades or repairs in that time, my last priner was scapped after 8 years about the same as my computer paper printer. No Upgrades needed, a few spares on that one but that was 10 years ago, stuffs better now.

You could upgrade my printer like I coild upgrade my car with more bling. I don't do either there is no actual need. IF you are a printer enthusiast you add the bling it's part of the hobby but utterly uneccessary. I have a friend who does have the colour gadget, any sort of colour change for Resin printers is well above all but the most lunatic enthusiast and the colour prints were not great.

However the number of colours available for FDM printers is limited so not reall a wargame thing.

Of course withan FDM oprinter H&S is a no brainer, no resin to spill, dropping a 1 kg spool on a toe might hurt No H&S incidents in 10 years, no carpet damage and the boss lets in the house. Yes you need to keep small kids of it, but neither do you want them near a scaple or a kitchen knife.

One device so easier to store an FDM only one pice of kit. I would struggle in the hoise with having two pieces of kit.

The quality issue is somewat of a farce for a gamer. Try seeing any 4 thou line (or less) 3ft away after painting. If you want to stare at your model with a magnifying glass you are well off my list of players, to busy peering and not concentrating on playing.

@UshCha

Couldn't agree more. You are making my points for me, tho'. What I meant to say (perhaps not clearly enough) is that the "problems" cited for not getting a resin printer are often – indeed almost universally – as spurious as those cited for not getting a filament printer. They are mostly disinformation for both camps, but that's the trap you fell into. An acquaintance of mine has an FDM (from memory an Ender 3) which he got going (unlike a resin printer you have to assemble filament printers yourself – that's a contextual joke, don't kill me for it), and then he bought a new hot end/nozzle, managing to generate nothing but spaghetti since! That's the kind of reason I went for a "straight out of the box" resin printer as a starting option. Even I can't get that part wrong ! It never even occurred to me to buy a colour printer. Many of these tales are indeed legacy, and no longer apply to modern kit, but have become embedded in urban myth and spread by those with their own naysayer agenda (no names: no pack drill). Several of the "does and don'ts" I saw on the internet and given as vital for successful safe printing, I have completely ignored, to no great deficit. I guess some people just need life and their hobby to be complicated. Now I have a little more experience, I intend – as you may have gathered – to acquire an FDM printer at some stage. You won't need to sell me the idea, but I'll probably want to pick your brain about it from time to time!

Cheers

Kev

UshCha and crashtestdummy:

Thank you for your clarifying answers. It seems as though many of the challenges of 3D printing have, indeed, been mollified, with superior technology making it easier, and simpler. I appreciate your insights, as I am sure many members of TMP do.

With regards to layer lines (mostly an FDM printer issue these days), one of my biggest concerns is the fact that I am a huge Dip'er: I use Minwax Polyshades Urethane Stain to shade my figures, and my terrain items, giving them a dirty, aged look. I've always been concerned that an FDM printer's layer lines would be problematic, with The Dip making them way too obvious. I have no idea how thin the layer lines must be for them not to show up starkly, with The Dip Technique applied.

My current reason for not getting into 3D printing is that I really have little need for one for any purpose. My hobby pursuits are nearing complete fulfillment. I have about as many miniatures as I want/need, and I have enough terrain (for my current storage capacity, that is).

I think your information in this thread will prove very useful to other gamers, however. Thank you. Cheers!

UshCha, I know you game in smaller scales, but do you have any idea what your output in terms of miniatures and vehicles is after 5,000 hours of printing? Not being a 3D printing guy, it sounds like it would be a tremendous amount.

Lets think, This week I printed 13 EBR 90's so that's about 18 hrs running. 12 Jeeps that's about 4 hrs, perhaps a bit less. 5 platoons of infantry about 50 infantry plus 12 MG teams Probably about an hour. 5 VABS about 8 hrs.

So perhaps just in model data not figures. 30 vehicles in 27 hrs. Now thinking a bit tanks take 1 1/2 hrs each which is not far from the above. So 5000hrs/1.5 gives about 2800 Tank equivalents.

Now it is between myself and Alex and I print stuff for my Co-Author Paul and there is some large jobs for DIY in that run time. Alex has done some huge 24hr plus, super large spaceships, and terrain and boxes etc. not just for wargames. But 2800 1/144 tank equivalents gives you some idea.

Surprisingly 1/72 tanks don't take 8 times longer because we print them at 0,2mm resolution so its twice as fast. Probably 4 to 6 times as long at 1/72, so roughly 1000 1/72 vehicles as some are smaller than tanks.

Filament wise its probably cost about £600.00 GBP in filament so about £0.21 GBP per 1/144 tank equivalent.

As Johnnie Ringo said to Doc Holiday, "Age quod agis". Meaning, "You do you."
It's been pointed out in this thread that 3D printing is a hobby in itself.
I don't have the room, the time or the money to buy a printer.
I do not need a printer for my specialized 28mm needs. I'm more than happy to buy Cuera dragoons or Apache medicine men from Gringo40s in metal and shipping to the states. I have no clue where to get STL files for them. Frankly, every single 3D print Native American figure that I've seen is ludicrously inaccurate. And it costs more than a metal figure.
Pass.

I might add that I'm a retired AutoCAD engineer, with experience in 3D drawings and renders.

IFekundar Strakhf if you only buy a few models a year then a printer does not make ecopnoic sence. Its not a hobby in itself, that is a roumor put about be folk who don't fancy it and have never done the research.

%000 hrs running and no maintainace and no tweaks the system has not let me down so hardly a hobby in iself. But if you don't fancy it or spend very little on figures then it make sence not to have one.

If I needed only 1 vehicel then £50.00 GBP for the file is definitely not worth it. If you need 12 or more it make sence.